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Isved

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1993 190e Sportline LE, M104, getrag, nitrous
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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello everyone,

I'm hoping to get some insight on a problem I am having in my m104(from '95 e320) swapped 190e.

The problem is as such:

The car drives fine. Shifts fine. BUT if I hold a gear (it's manual) and stay on the throttle (not necessarily full throttle) for longer than a few seconds, it hits a wall, and then seems like it's in limp mode. It still drives, but feels like something is "stuck" and is making it harder for it to drive. Literally feels like I'm towing something.
Note: I do not have a diagnostic module connected. I plan on getting one this weekend if someone says that it's directly related, but I am simply not sure.

Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
 
Just A Guess

Fuel starvation. Higher RPM = more fuel consumption.

Filters, screens, and pump need replacing?

See if it occurs at steady low rpm(<2,000) in 2nd gear. Above 3000? 4000? What happens when you run wide open throttle and it gets above 5k rpm? If it is a fuel issue, you should get the same effect with a WOT, I would think.

Can you make it do this at a standstill? I've seen exhaust blockage cause this issue, too. Have a helper rev the engine while you feel the exhaust out the back.

Secondly, I'd look into the ignition, coil packs, plugs, wires, and computer(rev limiter?).

You scare me with the engine swap, frankly. I don't know how much you brought over with the M104.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Great notes! Thank you very much!!

ONE NOTE I LEFT OUT: If I shut the car off and restart it (even if it's moving) it's right back to normal, until I choose to stay on the throttle to hold out a gear a bit longer than a few seconds. Maybe that will give the gurus some hints

Thanks!
 
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I hate to sound like a broken record, but this has all the hallmarks of eco junk.

See link. Eco junk affects primarily the main engine wiring harness and throttle body.

Also put in a brand new MB or KAE(hler) OVP relay and a full set of copper core ceramic fuses if not done so already to establish a decent electrical baseline.

PeachPartsWiki: W124 Engine Wiring Harness Replacement
 
If it is eco junk and going into limp mode, its probably the ETA (throttle body)
When its acting while driving and when the RPM gets around 3.5-4k abruptly let off the throttle.
It should change gears.
I suspect it may be holding gear shifts while (if it is) in limp mode. Abruptly letting off the throttle is a way to get it to shift.
What is your max speeds you can get the car to?
 
ahh...reading comprehension....not so good.

OP, what 104 is it, an early one from a CE, or a later one?
(duhh....see it now...)
 
OP, Was the wagon an ASR wagon? If so it may be looking for wheel sensor/throttle inputs that are not there. Defaulting to limp. CEL's/codes would be a big help.
 
OP, Was the wagon an ASR wagon? If so it may be looking for wheel sensor/throttle inputs that are not there. Defaulting to limp. CEL's/codes would be a big help.
Good point

W124 cars with ASR have 2 rear axle sensors
One for the ABS, another for the ASR


.
 
Isved -

An M104 HFM automatic converted to a manual and transplanted into a 190e? You do like to live dangerously.

The issue could indeed be the ecco junk wiring problem as previously posted and you should definitely check the date code on the harness (which presumably came from the donor car) to make sure it is not within the affected date range (any date post 1998 is okay). But assuming for the moment that the harness is okay, there are two chassis signals that the HFM system needs fed to the ECUs. The M104 HFM motor uses an electronically controlled throttle controlled by a separate ECU which in turn interfaces with the engine ECU. In order to function properly, the ETA/CC module must receive the wheel speed signals from the ABS system module and it must receive the vehicle speed sensor signal from the hall effect sender on the instrument cluster. If these are not present, the ETA/CC module can go into limp mode under certain conditions.

Interestingly, I don't think you will find any DTCs other than code 26, "upshift delay defective" at the ECU and this code does not cause limp home mode. The real codes are probably stored in the ETA/CC module (pin 14 on the 16 pin connector), but I'm pretty sure they are not "blink" or "analog" codes.

So, in your transplant, did you attempt to provide these signals, and if so, how?

- FD

ps - the signal to the ETA/CC module comes from the ABS module in both ASR and non-ASR cars - only the data transferred between the two modules changes.
 
When my 95 had limp issues it was the ETA. But I have ASR.
And I still have my 4sp autobox, but still get random 26's....
Confirm the date code on the ETA (throttle body) I bet its toasty.

Flooby, so the Harness, ETA or the separate ECU's could be suspect then correct? Seeing as you have eliminated any possibility of wheel/trans sensors. Could the 201's sensor be transmitting unintelligible data, is it the same part?

I agree...on the swap drop of an HFM 104 in a 201, but its good to see people challenge themselves. I'm local to this car and will have to be on the lookout.
 
I think the first thing that has to be looked into is the potential ecco junk wiring, especially the ETA. In the ETA, MB runs a DC motor in "servo" mode via a feedback potentiometer so "holding" a throttle position becomes unreliable if the wiring is "leaking" current because of ecco junk.

I didn't mean to eliminate the sensors from the equation, I was merely trying to point out (probably not well) that the engine ECU and ETA/CC ECU do not interface directly with those sensors. They depend on the ABS ECU to provide them. It is unlikely that the W201 ABS system is set up to provide the correct signals to the M104 ECUs.

Because this is a "transplant" the M104 ECU harnesses must been spliced into the W201 engine bay wiring. Obviously, power, fuel pumps, etc. have been properly done or it would not run. But it can be difficult to do and easy to forget about the chassis signals. In my experience, these are usually the biggest headache when transplanting a newer engine into and older chassis. I can't count how many hours I spent designing and building speed, shaft speed, and other sensors for my 1980 Triumph which I fitted with a modern fuel injections system.
 
I think the first thing that has to be looked into is the potential ecco junk wiring, especially the ETA. In the ETA, MB runs a DC motor in "servo" mode via a feedback potentiometer so "holding" a throttle position becomes unreliable if the wiring is "leaking" current because of ecco junk.

I didn't mean to eliminate the sensors from the equation, I was merely trying to point out (probably not well) that the engine ECU and ETA/CC ECU do not interface directly with those sensors. They depend on the ABS ECU to provide them. It is unlikely that the W201 ABS system is set up to provide the correct signals to the M104 ECUs.

Because this is a "transplant" the M104 ECU harnesses must been spliced into the W201 engine bay wiring. Obviously, power, fuel pumps, etc. have been properly done or it would not run. But it can be difficult to do and easy to forget about the chassis signals. In my experience, these are usually the biggest headache when transplanting a newer engine into and older chassis. I can't count how many hours I spent designing and building speed, shaft speed, and other sensors for my 1980 Triumph which I fitted with a modern fuel injections system.
There is great information in here, and thanks for posting it! My car has had a weird issue similar to this for several months and the description of "limp mode" here seems to fit the bill. I am re-wiring my ETA and replacing upper and lower harnesses this weekend and I am crossing my fingers that it takes care of my intermittent issue.
 
I am re-wiring my ETA
There is lots of information on re-wring the ETA on this and other forums. One thing that I have not seen mentioned in any of these discourses is separation of signal and power wires. If you look carefully at the original cable (if there is enough left of it) you will see that the smaller signal (e.g. switch and potentiometer) wires are twisted together in a bundle in the clockwise direction forming a center core whereas the power wires (along with some nylon "spacer" filaments) are twisted around this bundle in a counter clockwise direction. This was done to prevent crosstalk between the two circuits which operate at radically different power levels (signal: microamps or milliamps; power: amperes). I believe that failing to do this is one (of many) reason(s) why people can have trouble with re-wired parts.

There are two "methods" that people have posted for re-wiring the ETA. One is to replace the OEM wire entirely and the other is to re-insulate the OEM wiring with heat shrink tubing. I prefer the later method as it allows you to re-create the opposing spiral of the bundle. Removing the nylon spacers allows for the added thickness of the heat shrink. If you go for the former, I would recommend that you use a small gauge (such as 24 gauge) stranded cable for the signal wires and multiple signal conductor larger (about 18 gauge) stranded wire for the power conductors. By noting the direction of twist in your cable, the signal power wires can then be oriented with the their twist in the opposite direction. You can even go with a hybrid configuration and use the cable for the signal and re-insulate that power wires. As with the other posts, be sure to protect and properly seal the repaired wiring.

Repaired ETAs, even if done perfectly, will be less reliable and less durable than OEM because they are by definition older than non-ecco junk units which are newer than 1998. But, I believe that a re-wired ETA, if done properly, can provide a service life that is mechanically limited (e.g., the gears, bushings, or potentiometers wear out) instead of prematurely limited by the wiring failure. It becomes a question, like many things on the W124, of time versus money.

- FD

ps - I added a pic of the wire bundle twist after heat shrink tubing was applied and a pic of the finished ETA. Note the armored cable protection
pss - One more thing. People usually uses silicon to "seal" the connections. Unless you use the correct type and prepare the surface properly, it is not reliable in this application. I use a true dielectric insulation sealer called Scotchkote that is designed to bond to both metal and wire insulation (including heat shrink) and create a water proof seal with 1000 volts/mil of dielectric strength. Coat the pins on the connector where the wires are soldered on and fill the channel where the wires pass through the ETA body to establish a seal. Then you can use silicon to glue everything else back together.
 

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...One thing that I have not seen mentioned in any of these discourses is separation of signal and power wires. If you look carefully at the original cable (if there is enough left of it) you will see that the smaller signal (e.g. switch and potentiometer) wires are twisted together in a bundle in the clockwise direction forming a center core whereas the power wires (along with some nylon "spacer" filaments) are twisted around this bundle in a counter clockwise direction. This was done to prevent crosstalk between the two circuits which operate at radically different power levels (signal: microamps or milliamps; power: amperes). I believe that failing to do this is one (of many) reason(s) why people can have trouble with re-wired parts.

There are two "methods" that people have posted for re-wiring the ETA. One is to replace the OEM wire entirely and the other is to re-insulate the OEM wiring with heat shrink tubing. I prefer the later method as it allows you to re-create the opposing spiral of the bundle. Removing the nylon spacers allows for the added thickness of the heat shrink. If you go for the former, I would recommend that you use a small gauge (such as 24 gauge) stranded cable for the signal wires and multiple signal conductor larger (about 18 gauge) stranded wire for the power conductors. By noting the direction of twist in your cable, the signal power wires can then be oriented with the their twist in the opposite direction. You can even go with a hybrid configuration and use the cable for the signal and re-insulate that power wires. As with the other posts, be sure to protect and properly seal the repaired wiring.

Repaired ETAs, even if done perfectly, will be less reliable and less durable than OEM because they are by definition older than non-ecco junk units which are newer than 1998. But, I believe that a re-wired ETA, if done properly, can provide a service life that is mechanically limited (e.g., the gears, bushings, or potentiometers wear out) instead of prematurely limited by the wiring failure. It becomes a question, like many things on the W124, of time versus money.

- FD

ps - I added a pic of the wire bundle twist after heat shrink tubing was applied and a pic of the finished ETA. Note the armored cable protection
pss - One more thing. People usually uses silicon to "seal" the connections. Unless you use the correct type and prepare the surface properly, it is not reliable in this application. I use a true dielectric insulation sealer called Scotchkote that is designed to bond to both metal and wire insulation (including heat shrink) and create a water proof seal with 1000 volts/mil of dielectric strength. Coat the pins on the connector where the wires are soldered on and fill the channel where the wires pass through the ETA body to establish a seal. Then you can use silicon to glue everything else back together.
^This is the reason why I will never endorse DIY rewired ETAs. In addition, rewiring a ETA also jeapordizes the watertightness of the unit against dust, dirt, water and the elements.

One thing that struck me a bit odd in the pic of the rewired of the ETA above is the white & black barcoded label. I was under the impression that those indicated non-eco junk units. Every single unit that I have come across as being eco junk free AND manufactured in 1998 or later has that same sticker.

On the other hand, every single eco junk era unit that I have come across has the old style green & white sticker.
 
One thing that struck me a bit odd in the pic of the rewired of the ETA above is the white & black barcoded label. I was under the impression that those indicated non-eco junk units. Every single unit that I have come across as being eco junk free AND manufactured in 1998 or later has that same sticker.

On the other hand, every single eco junk era unit that I have come across has the old style green & white sticker.
Nope, white label is ASR throttle body

Green label CC/ISC motor
 
The scotch coat is the most reliable waterproof/weatherproof stuff. We use it on outside connections on Bering Sea fishing boats. Open a connection after 10 years in the most horrible conditions, and it is still shiny new. For hydraulic fittings we use a waxy tape called densyl tape, same results, like shiny new fittings...:)
 
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